Tuesday, August 26, 2025

"trans is not the same as gay"

It all started with this image, posted earlier:

1950s, not 1950's. Hyphenate the phrasal adjective body-altering. Comma after Thankfully.

My buddy Charles commented:

Come on... you can't tell me you really support that first [meme]. You and I both know that trans is not the same as gay.

I promised a reply, so here it is.

Is there a disanalogy here, or isn't there? The people using chemicals on homosexuals decades ago (and even today) were most likely moral/religious conservatives. I'm sure left-liberals back then would have agreed that chemical treatment in an attempt to turn a homosexual into a heterosexual was A Bad Thing. Nowadays, though, it's the left-liberals who are advocating for chemical treatment for trans people. If anything, it would seem both sides have altered their stances on chemical treatments (or maybe they haven't; maybe only one side changed). Of course, researching this online is no use since search engines have a leftward slant and are likely to provide left-leaning search results that brand "conversion therapy" as pseudoscience—and frankly, I agree that such "therapy" is pseudoscience—but are unlikely to say the same about left-leaning search results touting chemically enhanced "gender-affirming care," which the left will claim is based on solid science backed by study after study. Personally, I'm not convinced. We'll get into why in a bit.

The next phase of this ongoing argument is when the left contends the 1950s-era "conversion therapists" were illegitimately attempting to alter people's sexual orientation while today's doctors merely wish to affirm an already-ingrained orientation—not the same thing at all! There's your disanalogy! In other words, the left argues, it matters why the chemical treatment is being done: forcible conversion based on pseudoscience or legitimate succor based on real science.

I'd agree with Charles, at least superficially, that "trans is not gay" (so would Dave Chappelle) but you do have to admit that the border between the two conceptual labels is fuzzy. The 90s argument was that, if you were gay, then your orientation was hard-wired that way. After all, if you're hetero, did you choose to be hetero? You didn't. You were born that way. By parity of reasoning, people didn't suddenly choose to be gay or, more crassly, choose to "go gay." For decades, I've found this argument convincing. Hard-wiring is real. My gay little brother didn't choose to be gay. But at the same time, the labels gay and trans can be seen as kindreds insofar as they refer to orientations.

Unfortunately, after all of the decades-old ructions about homosexuality—which young conservatives these days couldn't care less about because they generally accept the now-venerable party line about hard-wired sexuality (it's the older conservatives who still balk at things like gay marriage, which they refuse to see as "real" marriage)—the trans crowd comes along and offers, from my remote and admittedly confused point of view, an equivocal message in the form of two distinct schools of thought: On one hand, one school of thought says that being trans is also a hard-wired orientation. I can understand this. But on the other hand, the other school of thought says that while your chromosomal sex might be "assigned" (presumably by nature if not by God), you are free to choose your sexual identity. And identity overlaps significantly with orientation. From my perch, it's a tossup as to which message is louder these days, and the question of whether gay and trans are disanalogous rests on which message ultimately wins out.

I've written respectfully about the "hard wiring" crowd: if people really have a bone-deep, cellular conviction that they are in the wrong body, to the point where they're willing to get surgery and take hormones to alter their physical selves, then my hat is off to them for having the courage of their convictions. And if these people—the ones in the hard-wiring school—are otherwise rational in their everyday lives, I can't say that they're mentally ill. Let them live their best lives as long as they're not competing in sports of their still chromosomally opposite sex (by which I really mean: trans women in cis women's sports*). But as you'll see below, my views on this are evolving, especially regarding the it's-not-wiring crowd.

I'm also not totally convinced of the innocent beneficence of the scientific community and its chemical "help" for trans people, especially the it's-not-wiring school of trans people. I'm not convinced that such "help" shouldn't raise suspicions, for any number of reasons from Big Pharma's love of money onward. While I think that trans people, as long as they're of an age to do so, should be free to choose their path in life, one area where my thinking has been changing is the topic of it's-not-wiring trans folks and their mental health.

If we focus on suicide rates, two paradoxical results seem clear: (1) the majority of trans people experience post-transition satisfaction (i.e., only a minority of trans folks regret the decision to transition, or so say the left-leaning online sources), and (2) suicide rates of trans people are far higher than for non-trans ("cis") people. The stats for suicidal ideation, attempted suicides, and successful suicides in the trans community are frighteningly high.** Is this the result of ingrained mental instability, chemicals, or a combination of factors? I would need to delve more deeply into what the studies say (keeping in mind the ambient leftist bias in modern "science"), but it would be premature for me to rule out the effect of chemical treatments on mental stability. True, maybe there's no connection at all: maybe the high post-transition satisfaction rates mean the chemicals (hormones, etc.) are doing their job. But then, how do you explain the high suicide rates?

All of this is fairly muddled, partly because I've merely scratched the surface of this topic and partly because the topic itself seems to be an evolving, amorphous thing. So while I might agree on a superficial level that trans is not gay, I'm not sure that I or anyone else has license to declare there to be a neat and clean separation between the two. Given that vagueness, I think the meme I slapped up speaks to its crowd of supporters, and any memes going in the other direction (send 'em my way!) speak to their crowd of supporters. The debate goes on.

So your takeaway from the above frazzled musing should be:

  • True, there might be a disanalogy between chemical "conversion therapy" for gay people and chemical therapy for trans people, who often choose to have treatments. (I say often because the vague word trans covers everything from people who merely think and act as if they're in the wrong body to people who go all-out and get body-altering surgery plus hormone treatments for hair loss—i.e., facial hair, etc.—and the growth/shrinkage of sex-linked traits.) However—
  • —while the left-leaning science and media factions have been quick to denounce chemical conversion therapy as pseudoscientific (and I agree), they don't seem to see any problem with the chemical side of trans treatments despite the extremely high suicide rates in trans communities.
  • Trans folks seem to subdivide into two major schools: (1) the hard-wiring school ("I can't help how I feel") and the not-wiring school (you can choose your sexual identity/orientation: if you think you're X, then you are X). I'm much more sympathetic to the hard-wiring school because it's consistent with what I know from personal experience, having a gay brother.
  • There might not be much or any correlation between chemical treatment ("body-altering chemicals" per the meme) and trans suicide rates, but as long as chemical treatments are part of the transitional process for so many trans folks, then the possibility of there being a connection can't be dismissed.
  • Reconciling high trans suicide rates with low post-transition regret rates is, for me, impossible. Someone somewhere has to be lying about something.
  • In the end, I still think the meme could be making a point. As long as the left refuses to budge on the issue of the chemical side of "gender-affirming care," though, people on the left will continue to see their therapies as benevolent and therefore disanalogous with homosexual conversion therapy.

One further, quasi-philosophical point: homosexuals who received (or are receiving) conversion therapy—right or wrong—do so by choice. No one holds a gun to their head. If so, what's the difference between choosing conversion therapy and choosing trans therapy? You might counterargue (as Google AI does) that homosexuals undergoing conversion therapy are under immense social pressure to do so (from friends and family and community), which makes their "choice" an illusion. But I could argue that trans folks live in an environment where they face their own sort of social or sociocultural pressure—one where alternative possibilities ("maybe I'm not really trans") are rejected outright in favor of a narrow vision that corrals the trans person into the operating room and post-op chemical therapy. There's no social pressure to be trans? There's no social pressure on rich, out-of-touch Hollywood stars to proudly show off their trans kids? How many of those kids think they're trans because their parents (read: mothers) kept telling them for years that they were trans? Why the explosion of trans kids today? Because it's only now socially acceptable to reveal one's true nature, or because it's simply a trendy "choice" (if young kids can make such "choices" for themselves) enforced by social pressure? And if we're moving in the direction of choose-your-orientation, what does that mean for the generations of homosexuals who had fought so hard to be accepted as being "born that way"? Are we now saying they weren't born that way, that they had, in fact, made a conscious choice? If so, that plays right into homophobic religious conservatives' hands (reminder: not all religious conservatives are homophobic).

But as always, when I step back from this trans issue, which ultimately doesn't concern me much personally, I can say I've been anticipating the increasingly polymorphic nature of human sexuality for decades now—thanks to a long, sustained diet of science fiction, where all sorts of sexual permutations and combinations are explored in hypothetical environments. Conservatives go nuts on this issue, but I've seen this as a long time coming, and it's just another example of why the gods punished Prometheus, who stole fire from the gods and gave it to humans, who gave birth to technology, which has proven to be both angel and demon. Humans will play with fire—in this case, their genes. It might go well, but more likely, it'll end in disaster. The gods' punishment for messing with creation.

Yet here's the thing about sex and having two sexes: biologically speaking, humans are sexually dimorphic, not a spectrum.*** Both sides have monoploid cells—spermatozoa and ova—that must come together to form a diploid. So for there to be a "third sex," you have to show that there's a new way in which three sexually different people are necessary for conception. Ever since the appearance of hominids, we've only ever needed A to get with B. For there to be a "C" sex, you need to show how A and B are incomplete without C. So for C to exist and make sense, A and B would have to fundamentally change as well. And you can't change them, because the system is closed, having already reached an evolutionary optimum: A and B have been sufficient since forever. That's just biological reality. 

All that being said, I can imagine clever genetic engineers in the future creating humans or humanoids out of whole cloth who must form sexual triples in order to reproduce. So who knows? Maybe the dream of a third sex (or, really, a separate set of three interlocking sexes) is achievable. But it won't happen in my lifetime. As for "nonbinary" folks (i.e., not A and not B, therefore not half of a reproductive pair)... I think we have such people already—they've been around all this time. They're reproductively irrelevant, and we call them sterile.

__________

*Ever notice how it's never the other way around? Gee, I wonder why.

**Google AI, essentially a fancy search engine, says this:

Transgender people, both adults and youth, face significantly higher rates of suicide attempts and ideation than their cisgender counterparts in the United States. Research has not focused on measuring suicide deaths specifically among transgender people, so most statistics reflect attempts and ideation. The elevated risk is often linked to "minority stress," which includes societal discrimination, violence, and rejection.

Suicide statistics for transgender adults

Studies from the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law provide a direct comparison of suicidal behaviors between trans and cisgender adults. 

Contemplating suicide: Transgender adults are seven times more likely to contemplate suicide compared to cisgender adults.

Attempting suicide: Over 40% of transgender adults in the U.S. have attempted suicide in their lifetime, a rate four times higher than among cisgender adults.

Recent attempts: A July 2023 study found that 7% of transgender adults had attempted suicide in the past year, compared to just 0.4% of cisgender individuals in a 2022 study.

Suicide statistics for transgender youth

Data from The Trevor Project's annual national surveys on LGBTQ+ youth mental health show a large disparity in suicide risk among adolescents. For the 2024 survey, which covers suicide attempts in the past year: 

Transgender and nonbinary youth: 14% of transgender and nonbinary youth attempted suicide.

Cisgender LGBTQ+ youth: 7% of cisgender LGBTQ+ youth attempted suicide.

Further breakdown by identity:

Transgender boys: 18% attempted suicide. 
Transgender girls: 14% attempted suicide. 
Nonbinary youth: 13% attempted suicide.

Disparities between trans and cisgender youth are even more pronounced in federal data. In a first-of-its-kind 2023 federal survey of U.S. high school students: 

  • 1 in 4 transgender students reported a suicide attempt.
  • 11% of cisgender girls and 5% of cisgender boys reported a suicide attempt.

Factors associated with increased suicide risk

Research consistently shows that experiences of minority stress increase suicide risk for transgender people. These factors include: 

Discrimination and victimization: Studies indicate that transgender adults who experience discrimination or mistreatment at school, work, or in healthcare settings report a higher prevalence of suicidal thoughts and attempts.

Lack of social support: Transgender people with a strong support network, including from family and peers, have lower rates of suicidal thoughts and attempts.

Mental health care access: A lack of access to gender-affirming medical care and mental health services contributes to higher rates of suicidal ideation.

Anti-transgender laws: Recent state-level anti-transgender laws have been associated with statistically significant increases in past-year suicide attempts among transgender and nonbinary youth.

***And as I've written many times before, don't talk to me about supermales (XYY chromosomes) and chimerism (one body containing a combination of cells of both sexes) as if these were "exceptions" to the binary. They aren't. Being a supermale just means you're still male; having chimerism just means you possess traits of both sexes—you're not a third sex.


11 comments:

  1. Loads of people choose to go gay - in prison, in all male boarding schools, in the United Kingdom Conservative Party etc. Later in adult life they modulate to get on or would rather have sex with women and set up a standard home or they come out of prison and don't talk about it. They suppress. None of this undermines your argument but it's as much a chosen act as any other in the sexual panoply. The 'hard-wired' are just at one decisive end of the spectrum in terms of pursuing their gardening activities on an incline.

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    1. Ha ha re: the Conservatives. Do tell.

      But I have to ask: in something like a prison situation, is it truly "going gay," or is it just pent-up sexual frustration/desperation?

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  2. It's at least going gay for as long as it takes to nut. Doubt they cuddle and talk about the kids after. It sounds like I'm pushing the Vidal idea that there are no such things as homosexuals, only homosexual acts and I'm not because I don't know enough about it, but pent up sexual frustration? That's why God gave you wrists. They choose to do it, even if the object of their chosen receptacle didn't.

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    1. I had to look up the Gore Vidal quote.

      “Actually, there is no such thing as a homosexual person, any more than there is such a thing as a heterosexual person. The words are adjectives describing sexual acts, not people. The sexual acts are entirely normal; if they were not, no one would perform them.”

      I don't agree with that, but it's an interesting quote. I see homosexuality ("gayness"?) as an orientation (attitudes, preferences, commitments, values), but this could easily take us down the rabbit hole of semantics. Is there an official, universally agreed-upon meaning for terms like "homosexual" and "homosexuality"? (Dictionary.com's definition #2 of "homosexual" can be interpreted as aligned with Vidal because it mentions behavior. Definition #1 is a harder sell.)

      I'm also not sure what to make of Vidal's final line in that quote—is he serious? If yes, then all sorts of ugly stuff gets normalized just because people perform them: murder, theft, rape, etc. I mean, to be charitable, if I were to look at the entire human race over its long history, I'd definitely say that things like murder are "normal," i.e., an inevitable part of the human condition. But is murder "normal" in the everyday sense of "things I can expect to encounter regularly in life"? If murder were normal in that sense, we'd never put anyone in jail. (Then again, come to think of it—in the States, we already go easy on criminals!)

      I actually agree with you that the prison rapist has made a choice to rape. Personally, I'd want to hold the rapist responsible for his deed. If he's merely the victim of his urges, then he's not a free agent, therefore not responsible for his actions. I have to believe he's free to choose. But was the rape done because he's a twink with a fondness for guys, or because he's a predator whose animal urges lead to choices that express themselves within a population of all men? Is that rapist likely to keep seeking sex with guys once he's out of the joint?

      Like you when you say "I don't know enough about it," I'm not really sure of the answers. But if "gay" refers to an orientation and not an act, then I'd contend the prison rapist isn't gay, nor does he "go gay": he's a predator who only has men as the targets of his sexual urges. And as you point out, those "chosen receptacles" don't accept being raped. By definition.

      But I can see this matter getting batted about more. I anticipate a rebuttal: If a sexual urge has someone of the same sex as a focus, is that not gay? I would say no—the predator doesn't really see a man in front of him: he merely sees a wet hole to gratify himself, and he calls his victim a "bitch" to feminize him—more evidence he's not gay. But maybe I'm being naive, and maybe these predators really are, through a series of choices that gratify them, really changing from heterosexual to homosexual.

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  3. Saying "ugly stuff gets normalized" and in so doing equating homosexual acts with murder might lose you some of your huge LGBTQ+++ readership. If it's a natural orientation how can the "actor" be morally blamed?
    Also I wasn't talking about rape in prison, which seems to me more of an issue in the US than Europe. I was talking about hard men casually picking up ongoing sexual relationships with other males, regardless of how weak those other males are. If it's all just 'wet holes' no wonder women go the extra mile with makeup and lingerie (or used to). I'm sure orientation gets skewered by situational environment.

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    1. Regarding this:

      Also I wasn't talking about rape in prison, which seems to me more of an issue in the US than Europe.

      I guess I was putting together the things you'd written:

      (1) Loads of people choose to go gay - in prison, in all male boarding schools, in the United Kingdom Conservative Party etc.

      (2) It's at least going gay for as long as it takes to nut. Doubt they cuddle and talk about the kids after.... They choose to do it, even if the object of their chosen receptacle didn't.


      Sorry if I misread you.

      Prison rape is pretty much a stereotype of US prisons. I have no idea what the situation looks like in Europe. And (this is just a side issue) are there differences in prison conditions between the UK and the Continent?

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  4. I see why this post couldn't be a comment. There's way too much here to address everything in detail, but I'll share my thoughts on two points...

    1) Pressure to undergo conversion therapy versus pressure to undergo gender-affirming care: I really do have to wonder how much actual pressure there is for people to "go trans." I realize that your right-wing sources make a big deal of this, but I don't trust them to tell me what is actually going on in the States. (I don't trust left-wing sources to give me an accurate picture, either, for what it's worth.) I'm not going to deny that there may be some people out there that pressure their children to undergo chemical treatments--there are all sorts of folks. But if such examples do exist, I highly doubt they are that widespread, and whatever social pressure there might is certainly not as widespread as the social pressure on homosexuals back in the mid-20th century, which was essentially universal. That right there is enough for me to see the meme as disanalagous.

    2) Trans suicide rates: I know you don't trust Google AI (and you shouldn't, quite frankly), but I believe the answer to your question of how to square high post-transition satisfaction rate and high trans suicide rates is right there. You're assuming that trans people would commit suicide after transitionining because of regret (at least, it appears that you are assuming this; apologies if you're not, but it's hard to see why this would be an issue otherwise), but there seem to be plenty of other reasons why a trans individual might have suicidal thoughts--namely, all the discrimination they face. These individuals could be perfectly happy with their transition, but they might not be able to deal with the external factors. It's tragic no matter how you look at it.

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    1. [Blogger tells me my comment is too long, so here's Part 1, with Part 2 ensuing.]

      So I asked Google AI directly: "correlation between trans regret and trans suicide rates," and its answer seemed both (1) eye-bleedingly leftist since most of the AI's training data are from the left and (2) beside the point. Anyway, here's the text of its response:

      There is no evidence of a correlation between gender transition regret and trans suicide rates. Studies show that gender-affirming care can significantly reduce suicidality, while trans individuals who detransition and experience discrimination report a higher prevalence of suicide attempts. The extremely low rates of regret for gender-affirming surgery do not drive the alarmingly high rates of suicide among the trans population.

      Key findings on regret and suicide risk

      The risk of suicide

      Trans people have a significantly higher suicide risk than the general population, often due to gender dysphoria and minority stress from discrimination and stigma.

      A 2023 meta-analysis found that the prevalence of suicide attempts among the trans population is 29% over a lifetime.

      Gender-affirming care is shown to improve mental health and reduce suicide risk for many trans people. Studies by the Trevor Project have consistently shown lower rates of suicide attempts among trans youth who have supportive, gender-affirming environments, including access to medical care.

      Denial of gender-affirming care and social rejection increase the risk of suicide. Conversely, social support from family, friends, and the broader community is a protective factor against suicidality.

      The rate of regret

      Regret after gender-affirming surgery is extremely rare. A 2021 systematic review and meta-analysis of nearly 8,000 trans patients found the pooled prevalence of regret after surgery was only 1%. This is considerably lower than the regret rates for many common surgical procedures in the general population, such as knee and hip replacements (8-10%) or breast augmentation (5-9%).

      Regret is not the primary driver of detransition. Studies show that detransition, which is also rare, is most often caused by external factors such as discrimination, social stigma, and pressure from family, rather than regret over one's identity.

      Detransition can increase suicide risk. The Williams Institute found that trans adults who had detransitioned were significantly more likely to report past-year and lifetime suicide attempts compared to those who had not detransitioned.

      Misinformation and ethical considerations

      The notion that regret over transitioning is a major cause of trans suicides is considered a false and harmful narrative. Public discourse that sensationalizes rare instances of regret or conflates it with detransition can exacerbate stigma and distress for trans individuals. For vulnerable trans people, suicide is a complex issue linked to a range of factors, but regret for affirming care is not a driving force.

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    2. [Part 2]

      Importantly, the AI says above that "Regret is not the primary driver of detransition. Studies show that detransition, which is also rare, is most often caused by external factors such as discrimination, social stigma, and pressure from family, rather than regret over one's identity." And discrimination, social stigma, and family pressure don't contribute to regret? The AI is mistakenly treating regret as a very specific thing related tightly and exclusively to the act of surgical/hormonal transitioning itself, but to me, the social problems it mentions could easily tie into post-transition regret. I have to wonder whether trans folks who get surgery are warned, pre-surgery, about the probable social consequences of their actions. I mean, I realize trans folks are between a rock and a hard place on this: they were probably experiencing negative social pressure before they transitioned, and they're still experiencing it afterward.

      So you can see why I think this AI remark missed the point: "The extremely low rates of regret for gender-affirming surgery do not drive the alarmingly high rates of suicide among the trans population." I'm not talking about "regret for surgery." I'm talking about a more generalized regret linked to the social consequences of surgery.

      In the end, though, I think we're all talking speculatively about this (e.g., the question of the prevalence and evolution of ambient social pressure over the years). Personally, I wouldn't shun a trans person, nor would I secretly think such a person was going to hell or had done something morally wrong in trying to make the physical body conform to the inner convictions of what body the person should be in. My own moral qualms, stated and restated on the blog, have to do with (1) trans women competing in cis women's sports, where the biological reality is that they do not belong there, and (2) trans people in intimate cis spaces like locker rooms and restrooms. I'm perfectly fine with there being trans restrooms.

      It's a complicated issue, and I don't claim to understand even a hundredth of it, but I'm not convinced that that meme is inappropriate. It would help, too, if the pro-trans side were more coherent and consistent about basic terms. Like "trans." We also need to be clear on what we mean by concepts like "regret," which to my mind has a much broader meaning than what the AI seems to be serving up.

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  5. I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure if I agree. Usually we feel regret because we did something that we judge to be wrong. If a person does something that they do not personally feel is wrong, but society judges them for it and refuses to accept them because they did that thing, can we really call the despair they feel "regret"? You ask, "And discrimination, social stigma, and family pressure don't contribute to regret?" I don't think they do, at least not to regret as I understand it. People who have transitioned may find it regrettable that society and/or their family treat them the way they do, but unless this somehow manages to convince them that what they did was wrong, I don't know if that qualifies as regret. You could say it's all semantics, but if this is how the people surveyed understand "regret," it would explain why Google is saying there is no link between regret and suicide/detransitioning/etc.

    Anyway, the "social pressure" issue is enough to convince me that the meme is inappropriate. I suppose if you believe that the pressure to transition now is equal to the pressure to undergo conversion therapy in the mid-20th century, you might think otherwise. I just don't buy the premise.

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    1. Do you think it's possible to feel regret if you go into an action absolutely positive that you know what you're getting into, then you do the action, then the consequences—which you thought you'd understood—turn out to be far more painful than you'd reckoned? Would that lead to a kind of regret, at least on the abstract level of "This isn't the life I'd thought it would be; maybe I made a mistake" variety? When I say "consequences," I'm not talking about body alteration or hormones; I'm thinking more about quality of life, whatever that might mean. Probably more along the lines of social relationships.

      I think I'm going to ask John McCrarey to do some legwork for me on this score. The PI has lots of bakla (trans folks), and John knows a few casually. Maybe I'll give John a set of interview questions to ask the bakla community (assuming it's even a community in his town). If you want, I can run the questions by you before I send them to John. I'm not sure whether John knows about the voice-recorder function on his Samsung phone. I might have to tutor him since I doubt he'll be any good at taking notes either on his phone or on paper. I think this discussion needs more actual data.

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