tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5541500.post8985708280349925247..comments2024-03-28T18:35:54.237+09:00Comments on BigHominid's Hairy Chasms: PDAKevin Kimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01328790917314282058noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5541500.post-86725056381448481972007-11-28T13:37:00.000+09:002007-11-28T13:37:00.000+09:00Hi Kevin. Monkey number one does look like she's ...Hi Kevin. Monkey number one does look like she's enjoying it though, doesn't she?annikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14631726576945004133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5541500.post-87283007417464787892007-11-25T20:41:00.000+09:002007-11-25T20:41:00.000+09:00Do you mind if I toss some almost random data poin...Do you mind if I toss some almost random data points at you?<BR/><BR/>I was just reading Bruce Cumings NORTH KOREA: ANOTHER COUNTRY and the PDA conversation reminded me of a passage that seemed kind of weirdly irrelevant to me:<BR/><BR/>"Another reason for close mother-son relations is that the North continues to adhere to traditional social norms about what's good for young people. They go to schools segregated by sex, dating and holding hands were frowned upon until recently, and thus out-of-wedlock pregnancies are very rare. If it nonetheless happens, the infant is given up to the state and treated like other orphans -- warmly. The result is that "most North Korean males forego sex entirely until their late 20s or early 30s," and so, presumably, do women. I once witnessed a group of Korean adults dancing sedately in a park, accompanied by an accordion. A few years later, I was strolling through Edinburgh and saw exactly the same thing. But, of course, in twenty-first-century America what North Koreans and Scots like to do for recreation would seem hopelessly outdated."<BR/><BR/>Cumings, p. 173.<BR/><BR/>So I searched the internet.<BR/><BR/>In the 90s <A HREF="http://www.isdscotland.org/isd/2092.html" REL="nofollow">teen pregnancy rates</A> in Scotland averaged around 70 per 1000 women aged 16-19.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/PUBLICATIONS/factsheet/fsprechd.htm" REL="nofollow">In the US</A> it was apparently between 116 and 87 per 1000 women between 15-19.<BR/><BR/>Obviously, you cannot underestimate the sexiness of accordians.<BR/><BR/>But I'll shoot myself in the foot on that point: <A HREF="http://globalis.gvu.unu.edu/indicator.cfm?IndicatorID=127" REL="nofollow">2002 showed</A> 3 births per 1000 women 15-19 in South Korea. 2 births per 1000 in North Korea. I would wonder what the (technically illegal in south korea) abortion rate is.<BR/><BR/>A <A HREF="http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/resolve?id=doi:10.1086/421279&erFrom=7079521676073642642Guest" REL="nofollow">study</A> of college students in Busan found HPV in 15.2% of women and 8.7% of men.<BR/><BR/>"Young women in South Korea start having penetrative sexual intercourse relatively late (median age, 18 years), but, once they begin, HPV prevalence quickly rises to levels comparable with those found in university students in the United States and in northern Europe."<BR/><BR/>This is why I am skeptical about the "no PDA in Korea" idea.<BR/><BR/>I guess the proper methodology would be to sit down in the middle of Jongno and count kissing couples.<BR/><BR/>Also, I would ask about other public displays of affection aside from kissing. Hugging, whining, clinging together, etc. I live in Daehakno and every time I go out I see dozens of nauseatingly into each other couples. I don't mind kissing, but the way they hang on each other makes my gorge rise.<BR/><BR/>I think I got totally sidetracked about your point. Aren't you glad you filter these comments?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5541500.post-22485591371288652992007-11-25T18:54:00.000+09:002007-11-25T18:54:00.000+09:00John,I agree that things are changing in Korea-- t...John,<BR/><BR/>I agree that things are changing in Korea-- that would be consistent with what I wrote above-- but I don't see nearly the PDA here that I've seen in the States since my childhood, whether that be on TV, on the streets, in public places, etc. Korea still has a long way to go on that front, although I may be speaking as a cultural imperialist (or so a Korean might say). After all, who's to say that PDA is <I>objectively</I> a good thing?<BR/><BR/>You're probably right about traditional values being bourgeois, though an argument can be made that richer families often maintain more traditional attitudes about who can marry whom, whether or to what degree the different classes can intermingle, etc. A good topic for discussion, but one I'd have to research before commenting further.<BR/><BR/>Side note-- many of my students, when confronted with the PDA question in class, immediately asked, "Are we talking about PDA in the daytime or at night?" Most of them felt that PDA was all right under cover of darkness.<BR/><BR/>What I found interesting, though, was that the above writing samples were written <I>before</I> we had the in-class discussion about PDA. The overall consistency of the answers-- which were written privately and independently in individual journals-- speaks volumes about the Korean vision of public morality.<BR/><BR/>Not to say that the <I>espoused</I> morality is always the same as the <I>practiced</I> morality: using Muslim countries as an example again, I've heard stories from Westerners who've lived in Muslim countries to the effect that precepts are violated left and right in those countries. The larger point, I suppose, is that this is a complicated issue.<BR/><BR/><BR/>KevinKevin Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01328790917314282058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5541500.post-21317651448567769532007-11-25T18:36:00.000+09:002007-11-25T18:36:00.000+09:00I've heard the "straitlaced Koreans" argument befo...I've heard the "straitlaced Koreans" argument before, but it seems to fly in the face of all of the couples I've seen kissing in the street, on the subway, etc. I suspect it's an example of things changing when no one was really paying attention.<BR/><BR/>Honestly, "traditional values" in general are bourgeois values. They're the values espoused by an urban middle class. Throughout history these values have flown in the face of the way things are among the lower classes, and particularly the rural classes. I doubt its any different in Korea, though I would gladly change my mind if someone produced evidence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5541500.post-63411055417714722432007-11-25T17:18:00.000+09:002007-11-25T17:18:00.000+09:00Annika,Hi!So in the wild, it's eat or be eaten, eh...Annika,<BR/><BR/>Hi!<BR/><BR/>So in the wild, it's <I>eat or be eaten,</I> eh?<BR/><BR/>Great to hear from you. Hope all's well.<BR/><BR/><BR/>KevinKevin Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01328790917314282058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5541500.post-67792445874806032532007-11-25T14:39:00.000+09:002007-11-25T14:39:00.000+09:00Annika: The nerve of that couple! They're no bette...Annika: The nerve of that couple! They're no better than animals! I think that photograph might be too obscene for even Kevin's blog.<BR/><BR/>As for how I feel about PDAs, well, I'm originally from New York, and I've come across couples in Central Park doing the nasty, so a little kissing doesn't really faze me.<BR/><BR/>I found the first comment most amusing: if they're good-looking, great! If not, bad! I just don't understand how some people can be so shallow. At least she was honest, though (on the other hand, she probably doesn't even realize that such an attitude might be considered something to be ashamed of).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5541500.post-87099179406705187782007-11-25T08:13:00.000+09:002007-11-25T08:13:00.000+09:00i used to not care about pda's. but recently i ha...i used to not care about pda's. but recently i happened upon a romantic couple that went way beyond the bounds of public decency. <BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.hostdump.com/uploads/943d42ddfa.jpg" REL="nofollow">luckily, i had my camera with me.</A>annikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14631726576945004133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5541500.post-24692195037344263342007-11-25T06:25:00.000+09:002007-11-25T06:25:00.000+09:00I’d be interested in what they say about housewive...I’d be interested in what they say about housewives and their boyfriends heading off to love hotels in droves. ‘Hey, they’re married, right? Just not to each other.’Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com