RiotWatch: Laurent Mucchielli interview

As promised, a translation of the Laurent Mucchielli interview. I gather that this interview occurred early on, before the violence had spread nationwide.

Q: Pourquoi les violences de ces derniers jours sont-elles localisées dans le nord de Paris? Pourraient-elles s'étendre à d'autres départements ou grandes villes?

Why has the recent violence been concentrated in the northern part of Paris? Could it extend to other départements or big cities?

Je me demandais quand la tension larvée et le malaise permanent que l’on peut constater dans les quartiers dits sensibles allaient éclater. C’est donc à Clichy-sous-bois que cela s’est produit. Mais en réalité, il s'est produit d’autres événements de ce type ailleurs en France, ces derniers temps, notamment à Vaulx-en-Velin, en banlieue lyonnaise, en octobre.

I was wondering when the pent-up tension and permanent malaise we could see in the so-called "sensitive" quarters was going to burst. And so it's in Clichy-sous-bois that it [finally] happened. But in truth, other events of this type have occurred elsewhere in France recently, namely in Vaulx-en-Velin, in the suburbs of Lyons, in October.

Simplement ces événements n’ont pas été médiatisés et politisés au plan national. Le phénomène actuel touche essentiellement la banlieue parisienne, mais il peut donc s’étendre à d’autres villes. En fait, on retrouve petit à petit une géographie qu'on connaît bien.

Quite simply, these events have been broadcast and politicized at the national level. The current problem basically involves the Parisian suburbs, but it could spread to other cities. In fact, we're again seeing, bit by bit, a pattern we know well.

Et c'est logique. Aucun des problèmes de fond qui dégradent la vie dans ces quartiers depuis 20 ans n'a été réglé depuis 2002. En premier lieu la situation économique et le chômage de masse des jeunes, mais aussi le quotidien des contrôles de police, que les jeunes perçoivent comme des contrôles au faciès et donc comme des humiliations. Le quotidien, c’est aussi le jeu du chat et de la souris entre gamins et policiers, comme celui qui a apparemment conduit au drame de Clichy-sous-bois.

And it's logical. None of the basic problems, which have degraded life in those quarters for the past 20 years, has been taken care of since 2002. First there's the economic situation and the widespread unemployment of youth, but there's also the daily reality of police surveillance, which the youth have seen as a sort of "face control," and thus as humiliation. Daily life also involves a game of cat and mouse between kids and the police, such as what apparently led to the drama at Clichy-sous-bois.

[NB: The sociologist is blaming the police, at least in part, for the electrocution deaths of the two youths. I disagree. While the sociologist may have a point about how a community might curdle under excessive police surveillance, we have yet to establish that the surveillance in the French banlieue has been excessive, given the banlieue's nasty, decades-old reputation. Perhaps it was the police's fault; perhaps it wasn't. I'd need to do more research before coming to my own conclusions.]

Q: La réaction du gouvernement est-elle appropriée?

Has government reaction been appropriate?

A l’humiliation économique profonde et aux humiliations quotidiennes s’ajoute l’humiliation politique et symbolique globale qui ressort des propos du ministre de l’Intérieur, traitant ces gens de "racailles" et de "voyous" à tout bout de champ. Ce genre de propos, qui relèvent manifestement davantage du calcul politique que de la conviction, est à la fois erroné et dangereux, car totalement contre-productif. Cela s’appelle jeter de l’huile sur le feu.

On top of profound economic abasement and daily indignities, let's add a worldwide political and symbolic humiliation, thanks to the words of the Minister of the Interior [i.e., Nicolas Sarkozy], who called these people "the rabble" and "punks" from the far end of the field. This type of language, rooted more in political calculation than in [real] conviction, is both mistaken and dangerous, because it is totally counterproductive. It's what we'd call "throwing oil on the fire."

Que demandent en définitive les auteurs de ces violences?

Ultimately, what are the perpetrators of this violence asking for?

Il faut comprendre que cette jeunesse, surtout quand elle est issue de l’immigration, exprime depuis plus de vingt ans un besoin de reconnaissance et de dignité auquel la société française ne répond pas, sinon par la peur et la stigmatisation - aujourd'hui, celles de l'islam. Cela ne veut pas dire qu'il faut excuser la délinquance. Mais il faut absolument sortir de l’effet de sidération que produisent les images de voitures qui flambent et mesurer les difficultés énormes qu'ont ces jeunes à s’insérer dans la vie sociale. Sans emploi, il n’y a pas de possibilité d’insertion, pas d’accès au logement et pas de perspective de fonder une famille. Cette situation, elle se prépare à l’école, où trop d'enfants intériorisent précocement l’idée qu’ils n’ont guère d’avenir dans notre société.

You have to understand that these youths, especially the ones of immigrant background, have for more than 20 years been expressing a need for recognition and dignity, to which French society has not responded except through fear and stigmatization-- today, of Islam. This doesn't mean we should pardon delinquent behavior. But we absolutely must shake off the staggering feeling produced by the images of cars in flames, and assess the enormous difficulties these youths face in trying to insert themselves into the mainstream. Without jobs, there's no possibility of such insertion-- no access to housing, and no way to establish a family. This situation comes about in school, where too many children perceptively internalize the idea that they have no real future in our society.

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I haven't read through the other sociologist's interview yet, but I suspect he's going to say much the same thing. There's some truth to the above: the scenario probably sounds familiar to Americans who deal with the harsh realities of US ghettos. Police presence, anomie, anger-- the ingredients are the same. There's no simple solution to such an entrenched problem, in France or in the States. We can't wish it away, nor can we pretend the problem doesn't exist.

But it's also true that the people who find themselves in these miserable conditions are nevertheless free human beings able to transcend their depressing situation and make their own choices-- e.g., whether to burn a car in misguided anger, or to renounce violence in favor of a more constructive path out of the ghetto. Like I said-- the picture isn't simple. Violence on a large scale arises from a whole constellation of causes. Some causes may indeed be external; I won't deny it. But as long as people enjoy human freedom, we have to admit that some causes are also internal. For the moment, I have very little sympathy for the rioters, who have, in my judgement, chosen the wrong path.


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